Dr. Christopher…: You go to school for physics, you get a master’s in physics and become a successful comic book writer. How is that done? We talk about that today.
All right, everybody. Welcome back to the, Get Over It! Podcast. I am your host, Dr. Christopher Pisano. Before we begin with our guests today, I want to remind everybody to check out the previous episodes. You could go right to your favorite pod player, Spotify, Apple podcast. If you subscribe, the episode will come right to your phone. So you don’t have to go searching for when a new episode comes out. We’re also available on YouTube. So you can watch this interview. If you prefer, like me, to actually see the humans here talking, you can go on YouTube. You can subscribe. You can also check out them there. And be sure to make, go to Apple podcast, leave a review, leave a five star review. It’ll help the show get up in the rankings. It’ll make more people see this show so we can help more people get over it.
Right, everybody. So today our guest is Matt Hawkins. Matt is the president and COO of Top Cow Productions. It’s a really awesome super creative company. It’s something where, you know, I’m not that guy. I’ve always been fascinated, when I was younger with comics, but what I want to talk to him about too, is I sort of went askew from it. I sort of left it for a while. And I have a kid now, and I’m sort of coming back to that world. So it’s kind of fun here. So we’re going to talk to Matt today. Matt, welcome to the, Get Over It! Podcast.
Matt Hawkins: Thanks for having me.
Dr. Christopher…: All right, so let’s do this. So let’s get everybody in the same context. So why don’t you tell us a little bit about Top Cow? You know, what it is, what the production company is, what it does. And then we’ll kind of take it from there and take you on your journey up to how you got there.
Matt Hawkins: Yeah. We’re actually celebrating our 30th anniversary this year. So Top Cow was founded in 1992 by Mark Silvestri, one of six artists who all left Marvel comics together to form a company called Image Comics. It was Rob Liefeld, Todd McFarlane, Mark Silvestri, Jim Lee, Eric Larson, and Jim Valentino. They all left together and created a new company, and basically to fight for creator rights. They wanted to own their own content and they wanted to own and control the characters and their creations. And I started working with Rob Liefeld in April of 1993, started working with Mark Silvestri in April, actually of 1998. And I’ve been with Top Cow ever since. So I’m almost to 25 years at Top Cow, and celebrating my 29th year in the industry.
Dr. Christopher…: So tell me a little bit about fighting for your creative rights. This is like, this is a thing in all aspects of creative, in the creative world, music, writing, art, anything like that, someone produces and like most, like this is a show. I have another podcast that’s creative, it’s mine. And I want to be able to own the license of where I go with that show. Right. So how is that? So when you’re a part of a big company, right? They own the rights of everything. So if you’re coming up with ideas, is that negotiated? Tell me a little about the business of how that works.
Matt Hawkins: Well, the way it worked in the old days is, different now because of what they did. And it’s a lot better now for creators. It’s still not fantastic. I mean guys like Rob Liefeld created Deadpool. Guys like Mark Silvestri created Mr. Sinister and some of the X-Men. And so these guys created these characters that would get turned into these multi-billion dollar franchises, and they would participate in some of the revenue, but they didn’t have any control. They didn’t have any say in what characters did. And they wanted to participate in the longer terms.
There was guys like Todd McFarland who wanted to make toys and do this other stuff. So the brilliance of these guys is they all left together. They were the top artists at Marvel comics in 1991, 1992. They banded together. They all left together and they formed a new company that quickly became the third largest comic company in the United States, in north America. And like I said, we’re celebrating our 30th year and I’ve been with Top Cow for 25 almost, but with Image and Image related companies for 29 years. So it’s been my whole career. I got recruited almost directly out of college and it’s all I’ve done. I’ve never had another job.
Dr. Christopher…: So Top, so what is the business relationship between Image and Top Cow? Is it apparent? How is that structured, is it separate?
Matt Hawkins: Image comics is… No, it’s a company that’s owned by the six founders.
Dr. Christopher…: Okay.
Matt Hawkins: But it’s not, the company Image Comics itself, doesn’t actually own anything.
Dr. Christopher…: Okay.
Matt Hawkins: The individual studios like Todd McFarland Productions, Top Cow for Mark Silvestri.
Dr. Christopher…: I see, I see.
Matt Hawkins: They are the companies that own the properties and control the rights and do these various things. Image Comics is kind of a, it’s where they banded together for distribution and printing.
Dr. Christopher…: I see.
Matt Hawkins: And now there is a guy named Eric Stevenson who runs Image central and has been doing so for a very long time. He does a fantastic job. And Image publishes a lot of titles for independent creators that they also are able to maintain and create their rights. That’s where Robert Kirkman came from with The Walking Dead. The Walking Dead was a Image title that was published to, no one knew what it was. It very quickly blew up into a huge success in the comic book world. And then later into the TV world. A lot of people may not realize that it was a comic book first. It was also a tremendously successful comic book. And then Robert turned it into, worked with them, turned it into the TV show. And now Robert with his success has become one of the partners of Image.
Dr. Christopher…: I see. Okay. But Top Cow was not just comics, correct? The production, it’s not just comics?
Matt Hawkins: Well, that’s primarily what we do.
Dr. Christopher…: Okay.
Matt Hawkins: We create comic books and graph novels that are then filtered out. We license them out-
Dr. Christopher…: I see.
Matt Hawkins: … in to film and television video games.
Dr. Christopher…: I see.
Matt Hawkins: We’ve had a number of films and TV shows and video games that have been based on our properties, but we don’t actually make those things.
Dr. Christopher…: I see.
Matt Hawkins: We’re-
Dr. Christopher…: I see.
Matt Hawkins: Mark and I will produce those things. We’ll attach as writers or producers or creators. And we work with the creatives.
Dr. Christopher…: Okay.
Matt Hawkins: But we don’t make movies or TV shows, or video games.
Dr. Christopher…: Which is how it’s, I mean, a lot of that’s how that works. Comics lead to other sorts of medias. Right? Like, I feel like that’s-
Matt Hawkins: Yep.
Dr. Christopher…: … the way a lot of this goes. I want to understand your journey, like how you got to where you are. What were you like as a younger kid, were you into comics? Were you always creative? Did you like it? Like, I always like to know like, yeah, man, I was into it forever or no, never. Like, what was your deal in relation to where you are now?
Matt Hawkins: Well, this is a question I get asked all the time.
Dr. Christopher…: I imagine. Yeah.
Matt Hawkins: People gen generally hate my answer because I did not read comics when I was a kid. I was not into them at all. And-
Dr. Christopher…: Really?
Matt Hawkins: … I sort of met Rob Liefeld in 1993, and he took a fly chance on hiring me. And I’ve just been in the… I was still-
Dr. Christopher…: But what were you doing at that point? Like, what was your background? Did you go to school for art or?
Matt Hawkins: I was in UCLA. I was in the physics program.
Dr. Christopher…: Really?
Matt Hawkins: Yeah.
Dr. Christopher…: Physics.
Matt Hawkins: I have a master’s degree in physics that I used for absolutely nothing.
Dr. Christopher…: Well-
Matt Hawkins: But, I’ve been writing comics for 25 years.
Dr. Christopher…: Let me, I’ll say this, Matt. I’m a neuroscientist doing marketing.
Matt Hawkins: Oh, cool.
Dr. Christopher…: Physics. I’ve always said. So like, this is funny. So like the only course I’ve ever dropped in my life was a physics class. I think it was like third year physics. I dropped it because I was like, what am I going to do with this? This is like, not… You know, it’s great. That one, two, I’ll take it. Then I get into like three, I’m like, this is crazy. And I always said, it takes a mind for physics.
Matt Hawkins: Right.
Dr. Christopher…: There’s certain things, like biological sciences are a little more tangible. Physics is a little more, it’s out there kind of, you have to be able to concept… So I could see how a physicist’s mind can be beneficial in comics, in creating worlds and things.
Matt Hawkins: Right.
Dr. Christopher…: That might not be of, are terrestrial, but also a little extraterrestrial and trying to use that. So I think I could draw a line there. Do you feel like sometimes when you’re creating and you’re thinking and you’re writing, you’re tapping into some of that in your mind?
Matt Hawkins: When I do science fiction. Absolutely. And I think one of the benefits I’ve had as a writer is I can read the science journals. And the science journals are full of great creative ideas that no one else can understand or read. So I pilfer from there on a regular basis. So I read Nature, and several of the American physical papers and a few things. And every once in a while you’ll read a line or two, you that’s just like, holy shit.
Dr. Christopher…: Yeah. Right.
Matt Hawkins: That’s really cool.
Dr. Christopher…: That’s really cool.
Matt Hawkins: Then I’ll create an entire story and create characters about it. I actually credit my ability to write, to playing Dungeons and Dragons for 30 years. I’ve run the same group through a variety of campaigns that I’ve run for over three decades. And creating those worlds and those characters and all that sort of gave me a basis on how to write and how to develop, and how to create stories and narratives and structures. And you learn by doing, I mean, the first… I have a hard time reading the first several books I wrote, because I now do not like them anymore.
Dr. Christopher…: Right. Because you look back and you’re like a young you.
Matt Hawkins: Yeah. It’s just-
Dr. Christopher…: Yeah. It’s like, wow, I know where I am now. And that’s about, I can’t believe that was me then. One of the things that always is fascinated with me about creatives and people that can create worlds and create characters and create like these things is, I’d use the example of like George Martin, like Game of Thrones. Right? Like everyone was into that. It became very popular. And I remember I read the books, and I’m not big into like sci-fi or anything like that. But I read the books and I remember thinking to myself, how does one create a world? How does one create this vast, I mean, that’s an extreme because it’s so vast, but any sort of bunch of characters that live and exist in a setting outside of the normal world in reality.
Matt Hawkins: Right.
Dr. Christopher…: How do you approach that? Like, do you create characters first? Do you have a concept? Is it different, or do you have like a process in which you go with that? Always wondered that?
Matt Hawkins: Well, for me, the process is always, I sort of create the laws of the world first, try to do it as a top down kind of thing. And then I go in and try to figure out the characters that are interesting and compelling and focus more on them. I sort of subscribe to what Steven King calls the iceberg method of writing, where the writer knows a hundred percent, but you only show the reader ever 10%. And the best example I can use is, I’m a star Trek nerd. Okay. I’ve been my whole life. You may not know this by talking to me unless I tell you. But if I signed off and I said, Hey, live long and prosper. That tells you something about me. It’s just a little affectation, that’s an interesting character bit, that tells you something about me that you may not know. And I think those are the kind of things that make characters endearing.
And one of the things I’ve done my entire career is I literally make Dungeons and Dragons character sheets for every one of my characters I create, because those character sheets have backgrounds, history, parents, it sort of forces you to sort of flesh out what all these characters are, who they are and you know, and live it. The biggest problem people have in comics and world building is they spend too much, and they focus too much energy on the world building and they don’t focus enough on the characters. And this is where you see like a great world and some fascinating thing. And the characters seem kind of lost in the storyline. I use Independence Day as a frequent example of this, the movie has this spectacle and all these sort of things, but there’s a bunch of characters you don’t give a shit about.
Dr. Christopher…: Right.
Matt Hawkins: You know, and there’s a lot of that in Michael Bay films, which are fun things to watch and spectacles, but they’re not very character pieces. And in a lot of cases, you can’t even remember 10 years later who the characters were or why you cared. But if you look at, in almost every piece of fiction that people gravitate to, there’s usually some sort of wish fulfillment or characters in there that they identify with or they want to be, or they sort of buy into their success. You know, you look at Luke Skywalker and Harry Potter-
Dr. Christopher…: Yeah.
Matt Hawkins: They have the same hero’s journey.
Dr. Christopher…: Yeah.
Matt Hawkins: It’s the same story.
Dr. Christopher…: Yeah. I think-
Matt Hawkins: You know?
Dr. Christopher…: Yeah. People want to relate to a character. I mean, I think, like you said, the world has this fascinating allure, of course, right? It’s this entity, it’s this thing. But I guess, as humans, as you know, animals, we gravitate towards the character and want to understand the character. And if the character just seems out floating around in this vast thing. You lose that connection a bit. So that’s interesting. So you create, like you create their whole life pretty much is what you’re saying.
Matt Hawkins: Yeah.
Dr. Christopher…: Like from soup to nuts, where they began, how they progressed, just like a normal… And then that I imagine helps you then do everything you need to do in that story. Because you now know exactly who you’re dealing with. Right?
Matt Hawkins: Yeah. You need to know who your character cares about. Who would they love? What do they love? Why do they love. And what do they hate and why do they hate? You need to know these things. And the problem is most people when they write, they don’t, they kind of make it up on the fly. And that’s pretty apparent as a writer, when you go back and you look at stuff and you realize, oh, these things are changing. Oh, suddenly Leia is Luke’s brother, suddenly these things that sort of get made up or added after the fact, are really obvious. And people get really lost.
That’s the number one thing I criticize young writers about, not criticize, I try to help them and teach them is that, and I’ve mentored quite a few, is that you need to focus on the characters because if you have a world that doesn’t make sense, people are very forgiving of that. I can point to you to hundreds of films and TV shows and fiction that the worlds make no sense whatsoever. But if there’s a cool character in there that the person likes, they identify with, that they’re rooting for, that stuff is all forgivable.
Dr. Christopher…: Right.
Matt Hawkins: That stuff all forgivable.
Dr. Christopher…: Yep. I totally agree with that. People want to, I think it’s just like anything in life you root for the person or an individual or character, it really pulls you there. I mean, when I think of, now, this is just me, when I think of comics there’s a storyline, you’re reading, but there’s imagery. Right. Very, it’s colorful. It’s different. There’s something about, that’s what I remember drew me to comics. I remember I was big into like Punisher and these things back in the day. And I just remember him and I remember the images and I remember that and it was like really cool to me and exciting. And I remember-
Matt Hawkins: Right.
Dr. Christopher…: … flipping through and being drawn to the imagery and of course reading, but the real… So where does that fit into the process of creation? Like, when you’re writing that list for characters, right. And you’re defining who they are. Are you defining their attributes or what they look like or does that come after? Where does the imagery come in, in a comic? Because I imagine that’s a lot of that comic?
Matt Hawkins: Well, comic books, people give, I think writers too much credit in comics. And I’m saying that as a writer, I think the artists are actually the more important component to comic books. And like I said, I can’t draw and I am a writer. So I’m giving more credit to the other person in the marriage that puts these books out. And Mark Silvestri is an artist and a writer. And you know, one of the things I really like about Top Cow is it’s probably the only, I think it’s the only US comic book company that’s owned and controlled by two comic book creators. You know-
Dr. Christopher…: Oh, okay.
Matt Hawkins: I mean, every other one is, Mark say artist and writer, I’m a writer. And we create and sort of straddle that business and creative side at the same time. But the visual component is everything because otherwise, if I’m just a writer and I want to control what I’m writing, I should just write pros because-
Dr. Christopher…: Right.
Matt Hawkins: … novels are the one thing that a writer has complete control over. You know, if you have a film, there’s hundreds of people involved in the vision of it. A comic book is sort of a marriage between the writer and the artist. And so when I write scripts and when I develop things out, I am usually initially writing that only for one person. That’s the artist. I write these things very specifically and then I send it over and I work with the artist, and then they start doing sketches and designs and start sending me stuff. And then, and in most cases, and very rarely have I created something that did not change once the artist came into the picture. I’ve had characters change gender-
Dr. Christopher…: I was going to ask that, does that happen where you’re like, and then they’re like, no, I can’t do this. Like, what is the back and forth like?
Matt Hawkins: It depends on who you’re working with. Like for me, I’ve worked with the same few artists for decades now.
Dr. Christopher…: Okay.
Matt Hawkins: And we have a shorthand and we work well and you know, I’ve taken care of these people and I’m their livelihood sometimes for decades. But because of that, they’re able to tell me their real opinions. Sometimes when you work with artists, you haven’t worked before. And especially if they’re younger or they’re foreign, like there’s a lot of artists and comics that are not in the United States, and they tend to do exactly what you say. And I don’t like that. I sort of like the collaboration. And the people I collaborate with like Rahsan Ekedal on Think Tank and The Tithe and a number of projects. Yishan Li, a Chinese artists out of Beijing, where I work with on Swing and all the romance stuff I do. Linda Sejic and Stjepan Sejic, they’re Croatian artists. And we have a strong back and forth and I talk to them all the time and development changes. And in many cases I’ll write stuff and send it, and they’ll tell me they don’t like it for this, that, or the other reason. And it becomes a collaboration.
Dr. Christopher…: So, there is a little, I guess, in your scenario, in your situation, there is a little bit of that back… It’s not just that you’re saying, here’s what it is. Here’s what I want, and I want you to do it. And then there’s really no back, because I imagine like a good relationship in a world like this would really benefit from a little bit of creative license. Right? A little bit of that, like, let me… What about that? Can we do that? And of course you’re writing it, I imagine you would say, well, I don’t really want to take it too far. Or maybe you have a relationship now where you’re like, great. Let’s run with it. Right. Because like you said, you know that imagery really, really makes the difference.
Matt Hawkins: Every situation is different. I mean, it depends also if it’s a work make for hire project, meaning like we’re doing a license book, like say I’m doing an adaptation of a video game that Top Cow, didn’t create, someone’s paying for us to write it. That’s a very different situation than one of my creator own projects where I’m creating something from whole cloth, adding the writer in. And I share the rights with my artists. So whenever I’m working with an artist, they share ownership with me. And so they buy in and they stay attached, and of course I’m going to listen to these people that I’ve worked with for decades.
Dr. Christopher…: That’s not always the case, Matt, is that not always the case where?
Matt Hawkins: No, not at all.
Dr. Christopher…: No. Okay. All right. So that’s not like a standard thing where like-
Matt Hawkins: No, it’s not standard.
Dr. Christopher…: Okay.
Matt Hawkins: Not standard in the industry at all.
Dr. Christopher…: All right. Okay. I was wondering, can anything become a comic? In other words, if you’re a writer and you’re writing something, obviously there’s certain things that are being written purely to read. But you know, I always find like the illustrations always help bring things to life and make come alive. When you’re writing a comic, or if I’m a writer and I’m listening to you right now. And I’m like, wow, I would love to get into writing a comic. What is the switch? Is there or is it not, can anything sort of be moved in that direction or does it take a specific type of writer to be really writing a comic?
Matt Hawkins: I think 20 years ago it was very pigeonholed into superheroes. I personally don’t write superheroes, because I don’t particularly like them. And it’s not a knock on them, but they’re sort of modern day mythology sort of written for male power fantasies and younger men. That’s sort of changed with the films and television shows. But if you look at the books I write, they’re mostly about real people, scientists, preachers. The most successful book I’m writing right now is about a ethically non-monogamous couple. A romance book written for women. That book’s published in 27 languages, 57 countries around the world. It’s my most successful book, read primarily by middle-aged women, you know?
Dr. Christopher…: Wow.
Matt Hawkins: And that blows my mind that I’m even writing that.
Dr. Christopher…: Wow.
Matt Hawkins: But I’m mainly a science fiction writer.
Dr. Christopher…: Where did that come from, by the way? Where did that come from? Like did you just sit there-
Matt Hawkins: The one artists-
Dr. Christopher…: … day and you’re like, wow, this is interesting. Let me explore this.
Matt Hawkins: No. One of the artists I work with named Stjepan Sejic, he did a book called Sunstone, which was about two women who got into a gay S&M relationship with each other.
Dr. Christopher…: Okay.
Matt Hawkins: And he did it as a free comic online just as a lark. He mainly did, he did another book with me, which was a heavy science fiction book that we did together for years and years and years. And he did this other book kind of just a, he called it a palette cleanser. And then he put it up on DeviantArt for free. Suddenly it got millions and millions of page views. And we took a chance and put it out in print. I was very concerned because it had actual sexual content and stuff like that in it. And it was very adult. It was a mature title. And we were very concerned about putting it out and thought that it might be the one and only thing we did. And it very quickly became one of Top Cows, best selling books of all time.
Dr. Christopher…: Wow. See that-
Matt Hawkins: And so because of that, we created an entire category and I took a shot writing one on my own. And I created this book about this couple that got married when they were very young, because the girl got knocked up in college. They got married, and had a family they’re like in their thirties and she’s never had sex with anyone but him, and he’s only had sex with two or three girls. So they feel like they’ve missed out when they’re talking to their friends who’ve been-
Dr. Christopher…: Yeah.
Matt Hawkins: They’re doing there all kinds of stuff.
Dr. Christopher…: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Matt Hawkins: Yeah. So they get into swinging and the adventure is away. The fifth volume comes out next week.
Dr. Christopher…: So how do you, I mean not to get too personal, but I don’t know if you’re into that world and swinging world, but like if you’re not, or if you are, how do you get into that? I imagine you have to understand the world to write about it. Right. So is it just research? Are you-
Matt Hawkins: It’s all research.
Dr. Christopher…: It’s just research.
Matt Hawkins: I mean you can research anything. I research Think Tank. My dad was an engineer for the military for 30 years and you know, so I learned a very specific way to research and understand projects and to be honest, the research for that project was kind of fun.
Dr. Christopher…: I imagine so. I imagine you learned about a lot of things. Well, I mean, you’re a scientist by training. So research and like reading, for everybody that doesn’t know, Nature is arguably one of the most respected, if not the most respected scientific peer review journal out there. It’s a very difficult to get a, when I was publishing, I think it was almost a 1% published rate in Nature. I’ve tried and been rejected numerous times to get… So, and it’s very physics heavy by the way. So you have that analytical mind to go in and do the research. I imagine that has to give you a leg up when you’re trying to create something. Right. Because the more you’re able to analyze and digest, that’s the more fodder for you to use, right?
Matt Hawkins: Yeah. And I do a deep dive. And in many cases, the research I do on projects takes years. You know, I did a book called The Clock, a few years ago, which was about the weaponization of cancer. And I spent four or five years researching it, interviewed several immunotherapists and actually brought a couple people on board to be sort of, that would edit me and look at this and make sure it was authentic. And in back a books like that, which I do the heavy research, I include what I call a science class, which explains the research, where they can go to see that this is actually legitimate. And the idea of the weaponization of cancer might seem absurd, but it’s very plausible, probable, and it could have already happened. And I explain all that and show, show how it works.
And I do the same thing with Swing. There’s a thing in the back called sex ed. And I write about the pros and cons of swinging, ethical non-monogamy and the various books that are involved. And it took me a long time to learn how to write romance because I was very bad at it for a while. And so I think the first volume of Swing is actually the 14th draft of that script-
Dr. Christopher…: Wow.
Matt Hawkins: … I wrote. And I kept bouncing it around because the Sejic’s, who were sort of the masters of that romance genre and had built this huge international following, I kept sending them the book. And there was one day when Stjepan, he emails me and says, Matt, you’re just not getting it. You know, I need you to go watch the first 10 minutes of the movie UP, five times in a row and then come back and talk to me.
Dr. Christopher…: That’s great.
Matt Hawkins: Or something like, he said, something like that. If you remember the beginning of that movie-
Dr. Christopher…: Yeah, I do.
Matt Hawkins: There was actually a, there’s a whole sequence where they come in and that guys, the whole family life and his wife dies. And it’s just such this touching endearing storyline that, that happens. So when I finally got into it on that, and I finally figured all that out, I was able to go back and I rewrote the script and delivered it and it worked out fairly well.
Dr. Christopher…: All right. So you said that your dad was in the military for, I think engineer for 30 years, right?
Matt Hawkins: Yep. Yep.
Dr. Christopher…: So I imagine then you’re bouncing around all over the place. Tell me what about that? I think when they call it brat. Is that what they call it? Is that-
Matt Hawkins: Yeah. Military brat.
Dr. Christopher…: Yeah.
Matt Hawkins: My dad was Air Force.
Dr. Christopher…: Okay.
Matt Hawkins: I was born on a military base in Minot, North Dakota, 10 foot snow drift. I lived there for two months, and then we moved to Cheyenne, Wyoming, Vandenberg Air Force Base, Whiteman Air Force Base. I mean, we moved every two, two and a half years, which as a child completely sucks.
Dr. Christopher…: Yeah.
Matt Hawkins: And so-
Dr. Christopher…: Yep.
Matt Hawkins: … when I got married and had a couple kids, I bought a place in Culver city here in Los Angeles and I’ve still lived there. And my two sons have lived, and they were born in Santa Monica and went to the Culver city school district, their entire school.
Dr. Christopher…: So you were like, we’re not doing this. You’re not, we’re not moving anywhere. Yeah.
Matt Hawkins: It really sucked as a kid.
Dr. Christopher…: Yeah.
Matt Hawkins: Because you don’t have any, I don’t have any friends pre-college.
Dr. Christopher…: Yep. You know why I know? Because, so I host a mental health podcast for kids and parents on another side. And I get frequently, I get military moms, military families reach out to me. And mental health among, in their kids. They’re so concerned with their kids because they’re constantly being pulled and they don’t have any, you know when you’re a kid, you want to have some sort of reference and ground. And when you’re bouncing, like you never know, it’s always, and you can’t form sort of relationships. So whenever I get a chance to talk to someone I want to know like, is that a real thing? And they always tell me, absolutely. Of course it’s a real thing. It’s so hard.
Matt Hawkins: It sucked horribly. I think the one nice thing was my dad in 1984, moved to Norton Air Force Base in San Bernardino, California. And we bought, my parents bought a place in Redlands. And I went to high school. I was the only one of my, I have two older sisters. And I was the only one of the three of us that went to the same high school for all three years. You know? And I mean, you think about that. And that seems like, Ooh, that seems very common-
Dr. Christopher…: Yeah, but for you that’s a win, man.
Matt Hawkins: It was awesome.
Dr. Christopher…: Yeah.
Matt Hawkins: You know, but still I was moving to California from Missouri and I you know-
Dr. Christopher…: And they’re different places too. It’s not like you’re moving from like, it’s completely different too. Now, what did you… I wonder this, did you harbor any negative feelings towards the military or anything like that? Or you didn’t even care? Like does it… Because this is a thing that sort of controlled you in a way indirectly, does it matter to you now or no? Did you ever consider going into the military or no?
Matt Hawkins: Oh no. I never consider going military.
Dr. Christopher…: No, okay.
Matt Hawkins: That was never an option for me.
Dr. Christopher…: Okay.
Matt Hawkins: My dad was a Vietnam era veteran and he did not, even though he spent his life in the military, he did not want that for me.
Dr. Christopher…: Okay.
Matt Hawkins: So I never had intended that. I mean, I thought I might go work for Raytheon or Northrop Grumman or one of those companies, Lockheed, like a lot of my buddies have. And I have a lot of friends I went to school with they’re making all the stiff that we’re using over in the Ukraine right now.
Dr. Christopher…: Yep. That’s where the money is, in the military man. That’s for sure.
Matt Hawkins: Yep.
Dr. Christopher…: That’s where it is. I want to understand a little bit about comics today. And the reason why I’m asking this question is because I feel like humans don’t read anymore or read a lot less… Sorry, got you in the drink. I feel like humans are in an age where if they can’t watch it on video, or it’s not scrollable, they’re all set. Right? So like comics, and I’m old enough to know newspapers. I remember going in the newspaper and looking at the Yankees game and the score and the box score. There was like a feel to it. Right. You open it up. There’s a smell. Had it on my fingers.
I remember getting a new comic. I had it in the backing with the plastic. I would open it, take it out, read it, put it back. It was sensorial. Like I had sensory-
Matt Hawkins: Right.
Dr. Christopher…: I feel like, I see my son, he’s 10. He reads now he gets and, but it’s digital. So how is the game shifted? Is it still at its core a book and there’s clearly still a big niche for this. I’m just wondering how it’s changed with time?
Matt Hawkins: Well, there’s still a desire for print. Typically what it is now is there’s a lot of people that still read. The middle aged, the reason why romance works so well for us is because women tend to read more than men. So the prime readership of a lot of those books are women, but the science fiction and the superhero stuff is still primarily read by men. And it’s both digital. I mean, there’s Kindle, there’s Kindle unlimited, Comixology is a company that does digital comics, that’s owned by Amazon. And that is the main audience. The comic book stores are just a small percentage of our business now.
Dr. Christopher…: Yeah.
Matt Hawkins: I mean, you go back to like 2000, it was almost 95% of our business. I think the actual comic book store right now is less than 10% of our business.
Dr. Christopher…: I imagine so. Right. Yeah.
Matt Hawkins: It’s digital. We have a thing on Humble Bundle right now, which is a thing that we put up for charity. It’s a bunch of digital comics and you know, we’ve raised 40 some thousand in just a few days. So we use Kickstarter to crowd fund things.
Dr. Christopher…: Okay.
Matt Hawkins: What happens is people when they become a fan of something, they want something tangible.
Dr. Christopher…: Right.
Matt Hawkins: It’s hard to get people to spend money on real things, if they’re not a fan of it.
Dr. Christopher…: True. Correct.
Matt Hawkins: No one’s going to go buy a $50 hard cover if they don’t like it already.
Dr. Christopher…: Correct. Correct.
Matt Hawkins: But if you’re a fan of something and you like it a lot, people want that $50 hard cover on their shelf.
Dr. Christopher…: It’s so true.
Matt Hawkins: And in often cases, they’ll go to a comic book convention and get either Mark Silvestri to do a head sketch on it, or look at me to sign it.
Dr. Christopher…: It’s so true, man. You know, like again, my kid is a good example. So he’s into these, you know the franchises like Dog Man and like Diary of a Wimpy Kid. And so like he has a Kindle, and he could download it there. But he’ll say to me, dad, I want the book. He wants the book. He wants the real hard copy book. And he wants it not just to have and hold, but he wants to keep it. He wants to have it on the shelf. He wants to see all of-
Matt Hawkins: Right.
Dr. Christopher…: All of the volumes and he wants to be able to look at it. And then sometimes he’ll go back in and he’ll take the third one out and he’ll read it again. And I think you’re exactly right, because he’s a fan and he waits-
Matt Hawkins: Yep.
Dr. Christopher…: … for it and he wants it. And he could read anything he wants nowadays on digital, but there are certain ones he really wants to your point. Like, but you have to be a fan of it first, right?
Matt Hawkins: Yeah. It’s more of a treasured item.
Dr. Christopher…: Correct. You know, and I remember this is so cool. This maybe ages me a bit, but I remember at the store, it’s called B&R baseball. I was at Rocklin county, and I used to have a box. So you could become like, they would have, if you were a sort of a member of this club, you had a box and you would have certain genres of comics or certain characters, certain things that you like. And every time they, I don’t know if there was a certain, I remember there certain day, I don’t know if it was like a day of the week or a certain time of the month, the new comics would come in. And they’d put your comics in your box. So you’re able to go, I would go in, I’d give him my name. He’d go into the box. He’d take out the comics and he’d hand it to me. And I have these brand new comics and it was so cool.
Matt Hawkins: Right.
Dr. Christopher…: It was like an Amazon back in the day, right. Something gets delivered to your doorstep. Except for me, it was creative. It was fun. And I looked forward to that. Right.
Matt Hawkins: Yeah.
Dr. Christopher…: And I’m kind of pissed that I don’t have that feeling anymore, because like I don’t do that anymore. And maybe I should use this as a point to try to get back into it. But I just remember that feeling. And I remember sitting down with a comic and it was something that was like, to describe it, like it was just whatever I was doing in my world. This gave me a chance to go somewhere else, you know?
Matt Hawkins: Yeah.
Dr. Christopher…: And I don’t do that much anymore. And I think maybe that’s one of the cool things about comics in this sort of genre is that it can take you somewhere. Is that what you like about it? Is that what you feel is like something that’s different about it?
Matt Hawkins: Yeah. I love it because it does, there still is, in between the panels, I mean with a film or a television show, you’re pretty much spoon fed everything. I mean, occasionally you’ll have stuff that happens off camera.
Dr. Christopher…: Right.
Matt Hawkins: You know, but for the most part in comics, a lot of stuff happens off camera. I jump scripts 20 years, you know what I mean? And I do that all the time. And so there’s a lot of imagination to these things. And when you read pros, you read graphic novels or comics, there’s an imagination to it that’s used, that I think is lost. You know? And even if you study the brainwaves, I mean, it’s a very passive, when you’re watching film on TV, it’s very passive.
Dr. Christopher…: Very passive.
Matt Hawkins: You just kind of sitting there going, zombieing out. But when you read-
Dr. Christopher…: Very, your brains, they’re not spiking. It’s very, very-
Matt Hawkins: You’re not engaged. You’re not, it does nothing for your long term Alzheimer’s potentials and all these things to neuroplasticity of the brain.
Dr. Christopher…: Nothing.
Matt Hawkins: But when you’re reading a comic book or a book, your brain is active, the neurons are firing all over the place. It increases your intelligence and makes you a better person.
Dr. Christopher…: How, like you said, someone took a chance on you, a physicist, a master’s in physics to go into this world. Right. And you had this opportunity now, clearly you love it. It’s what you do. Right. And I imagine you don’t see yourself doing anything else. Like this is what you really love to do.
Matt Hawkins: Oh-
Dr. Christopher…: Right?
Matt Hawkins: Yeah, long time.
Dr. Christopher…: If someone’s listening to this and they’re a fan and they’re like, wow, that’s cool, but I’m not a comic person, or I’m not… What is your advice to someone like that? Right. What do you suggest? How does someone take, how do they get over it? How do they take the step and go down into that world? Like, what would you tell them?
Matt Hawkins: To be a reader or a creator?
Dr. Christopher…: Just a creator. Like someone that like looks at something and they’re sort of, they have a fascination with it. They like it. And they could say to themselves, like you said, talk about Dungeons and Dragons. Like someone could be into something, but not feel like they could create something like that. But if the opportunity was presented to them or they were explained like, or maybe they would, but a lot of people can’t go there. They don’t know how to take that step.
Matt Hawkins: Right.
Dr. Christopher…: You did that in some regard. So what would be your advice as someone who’s saying like, I don’t think I could do that. I don’t think I could take that step?
Matt Hawkins: Nothing ventured, nothing gained. You know, I mean right now the entry, the barrier to entry in comic books and graph novels is lower than it’s ever been. And the reason is because there’s things like Line Webtoon and there’s various platforms online where you can just go and post up whatever you want. And so if you can team up with an artist or a writer or whoever you are and develop something and go put it out, you can try and learn by doing. And the problem is most people won’t, and they don’t take advantage of opportunities that present themselves. I honestly got lucky. I got a lucky opportunity, but I took advantage of it. And then I fought hard and honed my skills. And I’ve been doing this for 30 years. And you’re right. I don’t see me doing anything else. And I really love what I do. For me, my work is a joy.
Dr. Christopher…: Yeah.
Matt Hawkins: You know, I get up every day looking forward to what I do.
Dr. Christopher…: Yeah.
Matt Hawkins: Most people don’t have that luxury.
Dr. Christopher…: No.
Matt Hawkins: And I find that sad. So I think if you have the desire or a dream, really, there are all kinds of things that will stop you from doing that.
Dr. Christopher…: Yes.
Matt Hawkins: But you just can’t give up I mean, you just got to keep trying and figure it out. I mean, for comic books specifically, the great thing about our industry is that there are these conventions everywhere. You know, you can go to a comic book convention in New York and San Diego and-
Dr. Christopher…: Yep, yep.
Matt Hawkins: … Los Angeles, any, there is a comic book convention at least once a year, within a hundred mile drive a you, I almost guarantee. There’s even several in Alaska. You know? So if you live in Minot, North Dakota, there’s one in, I went to one there not too long ago. I can’t… Fargo. There’s a convention in Fargo. So I mean, even in the most Podunk places of this country, you could find a comic convention and there will be a creator or a company there that you can go talk to. And the great thing is we also have the internet. I mean, you have podcasts like this-
Dr. Christopher…: Right. Things, it’s a little more accessible nowadays. You could find stuff.
Matt Hawkins: Yeah.
Dr. Christopher…: Yeah.
Matt Hawkins: Yeah. And the great thing about comic creators is we are accessible.
Dr. Christopher…: Yeah.
Matt Hawkins: You know, I mean, we’re not like movie people where we’re sort of shielded from our fans and people can go on my Facebook and Twitter and talk to me. I respond to people.
Dr. Christopher…: Last thing I want to ask you before we close, we’re about 35 minutes. Is there, you’ve written, how many, what’s your, like your, I don’t know what’s it called? Not your library. Is it your library? Like how many-
Matt Hawkins: I’ve written over 600 books.
Dr. Christopher…: 600 books.
Matt Hawkins: Yep.
Dr. Christopher…: I imagine some, like you said, some are at different levels of following. Some do, like anything else, right. You create something like a song, like a music.
Matt Hawkins: Right.
Dr. Christopher…: But I imagine there are people that follow, like, I imagine this can be like a culture, like people really-
Matt Hawkins: Yeah.
Dr. Christopher…: … gravitate and follow. Like you said, they go to these, they go to these meetings, they go to these things. What’s that like, man, like to know that you’ve written something or you’ve created something that people get dressed up or people like… I think of Entourage. What’s his name? God. Oh God, what was his name?
Matt Hawkins: Turtle.
Dr. Christopher…: No, the funny guy, oh God, it’s going to kill me. Anyway-
Matt Hawkins: It’s been a long time since I saw it, so-
Dr. Christopher…: He did like an old, he did like a, it was kind of like a sci-fi thing. And it was like way back in the eighties. And like, he always held onto it for his thing, but he would go to Comic-Con and sure enough people would remember him and they would come dressed up like him. Like, what’s that like to know you’ve created something that people feel that much, it must be pretty cool?
Matt Hawkins: It’s surreal. I was involved with a character Aphrodite IX, which is a girl with green hair and an IX, a nine Roman numeral on her cheek. And yeah. Women dress up as that character all the time. If you Google Aphrodite IX Cosplay, IX Cosplay, you’ll see hundreds of women dress up with this character.
Dr. Christopher…: Oh my God.
Matt Hawkins: And they come up and I’ve had some of them ask me to sign various parts of their body and I’ve done it.
Dr. Christopher…: That’s crazy.
Matt Hawkins: No, but it’s weird because I think I’ve only been asked to autograph something twice in my entire career that wasn’t in a comic book store or convention. So my kids who don’t like comics and don’t read them, it weirds them out when they see me signing a couple hundred books at home and sending them off to some place that buys them, because I’m not famous to them.
Dr. Christopher…: Right.
Matt Hawkins: You know, Chris Hemsworth’s famous. I’m not famous.
Dr. Christopher…: Right. Right.
Matt Hawkins: But you know, you go to a comic book show and people want to take your picture with you.
Dr. Christopher…: Yeah.
Matt Hawkins: It’s kind of cool.
Dr. Christopher…: Yeah.
Matt Hawkins: It’s fun. I prefer it because I think if I had that 24/7, it would be, it would get to me eventually-
Dr. Christopher…: It’s too much. Right. Yeah. It’d be too much.
Matt Hawkins: Yeah. Yeah.
Dr. Christopher…: But I know that would be a really cool feeling to know that something resonates that much with someone that they want to be associated with you, they want to be able to go home and say like I met Matt.
Matt Hawkins: Right.
Dr. Christopher…: You know, that’s really, really cool. I imagine that must like, it’s like everyone wants a validation in some regard. Right?
Matt Hawkins: Yeah.
Dr. Christopher…: And that probably really feels good.
Matt Hawkins: Yeah. And we have a hardcore sort of niche following that follows us around and does these kind of things, which is kind of fun. But you know, as a physics guy, I always try to sort of clandestinely entertain and educate at the same time. So I try to educate-
Dr. Christopher…: Yeah. You’re academic, right? Why not?
Matt Hawkins: Yeah.
Dr. Christopher…: That’s what I love. Like, it’s not just random, you have tidbits, things that you want people to take away. Right. There’s there’s stuff there.
Matt Hawkins: Yeah.
Dr. Christopher…: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. That goes into the research that you put in, like you said, right.
Matt Hawkins: Yep.
Dr. Christopher…: You’re doing that research. You’re putting it in. People should be able to take stuff out. So where, for people that aren’t familiar, where do they go? So they’re listening to this and they’re like, that sounds really cool. They want to go, I want to learn more about Top Cow. I want to learn about Matt, where can they go?
Matt Hawkins: Easiest is just pick your platform, Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, Tumblr, anything. Just go to Top Cow, T-O-P C-O-W. It was originally, I think they wanted, or Mark wanted to call it top dog. That was unavailable. So he went with Top Cow in a drunken frenzy and it just kind of stuck. So we’re Top Cow. And we have that, topcow.com is our URL. And if you go to any of like Twitter or Facebook, it’ll link to my personal feeds and Mark Silvestri’s personal feeds. My name’s Matt Hawkins. So you can just Google Matt Hawkins, Top Cow, and you can find any of my social media and you go on there and ping me. If you want to talk to either Mark or I directly, you should go to our personal feeds and not corporate feeds. But go to the corporate feed because they link to our personal feeds.
Dr. Christopher…: Okay. All right. So the easiest way to do it is go to Top Cow. I imagine you’ll find-
Matt Hawkins: Yeah.
Dr. Christopher…: I know. That’s what I did. And I got a whole bunch of information that came right up.
Matt Hawkins: Yeah, yeah.
Dr. Christopher…: So Top Cow. Matt, thank you so much, man. I appreciate you taking the time. And I know we’ve had difficulty trying to get this rescheduled and everything like that, but I appreciate-
Matt Hawkins: Oh, no worries.
Dr. Christopher…: I appreciate you sticking it out and doing this with us is really interesting. I was excited to learn, to talk to you because again, like I said, it’s sort of coming back around with me, with my kid. And maybe I’ll be able to sort of relive and go back through him. That’s one of the cool things about being a parent.
Matt Hawkins: Right.
Dr. Christopher…: You can sort of go back and do and go through that. So I appreciate it. So everything we talked about, we’re going to link to this in the show notes. So you’ll be able to find Top Cow in it and the information for Matt there. I want to thank Dave Parker, Adam Claremont, over at studios for putting this on and producing everything and making us look good on the screen and sound good in your headphones here. Don’t forget to subscribe to the, Get Over It! Podcast. Matt, man, I really appreciate it. Thanks for coming on.
Matt Hawkins: Thank you. Thanks for having me.
Dr. Christopher…: No problem.