Chris:
Navigating the digital mediums like Facebook as a marketing strategist and also as a mom of teenagers, our next guest does both of those. Join us for another episode.
Chris:
All right, everybody, welcome back to the Get Overit Podcast. I am your host, Dr. Christopher Fasano. Welcome back to a new episode. Just a reminder, you could subscribe to all the previous episodes and new ones as they come out on your favorite pod player, Spotify, iHeartRadio, Apple Podcast, Google Podcast.
Chris:
Today we have another great guest and I’m going to introduce her right now. This is Kelly David from Twelve North Agency. She’s going to join me today on the podcast. Kelly, welcome to the show.
Kelly:
Thank you so much for having me. I’m so happy to be here today.
Chris:
So, Kelly is virtual through Zoom. And she was muted, of course. Who’s not muted on a Zoom call? So, our first introduction was, “You’re muted. You’re on mute.” It’s that like wonderful greeting that we have with everybody nowadays.
Chris:
So, like I was mentioning before, Kelly, let’s start with, introduce yourself, tell us who you are, where you work, what the agency does. And then we’ll go back in time and take your you from there to where you are now.
Kelly:
Sure. So, I work for Twelve North Agency. I’m the principal and chief strategy officer here. And I’ve been full time with the agency since May, so just about six months. I should know that down to the day, time and hour at this point, but I don’t. And prior to that, it was an agency that my husband owned. So, I came in and changed everything up. We’re located in Auburn, Maine, which is not a super, fast-paced town, but you might be able to hear the hustle and bustle outside my window right now, as I realize it’s not so soundproof room.
Chris:
That’s okay. It just makes it more real. We can hear the realness is of Auburn, Maine.
Kelly:
It’s nitty and gritty. Yeah.
Chris:
Now, you said you’re a Mainer. You’ve been in Maine your whole life. But you went away and came back a little bit. So, tell us a little bit about your history and your journey, both in life and then professionally, and how you made your way back to where you are now.
Kelly:
Yeah. So, I grew up in Maine, just about 20 to 30 minutes away from where I am now in a cow town. There wasn’t anything else besides cow fields, really.
Chris:
Did you ever tip a cow over? Did you ever do that?
Kelly:
Never.
Chris:
Is that like a thing now? Is that like a real thing?
Kelly:
People did that, but I would never.
Chris:
Why would you do that? I don’t understand.
Kelly:
We partied in fields though, for sure.
Chris:
That I can understand. That seems like a logical thing, but the cow tipping, people were like, “No, it’s fun.” I’m like, “Is it though?” What happens?
Kelly:
They’re so cute.
Chris:
They fall over and then… Okay. Sorry. I digress. Go ahead. Sorry.
Kelly:
Yeah, cows are too cute for me to try to tip them over. But so I went away to school, and I was never going to come back. I thought I couldn’t wait to get out of here. And I really enjoyed. I went to school in Michigan. I loved it. And got the travel bug, and then just being away and freeing myself of my geographic roots.
Chris:
Where in Michigan, was it University of Michigan? Where was it? What’s school?
Kelly:
No, I went to Grand Valley State, interestingly enough. And I’m not even really sure how I ended up there, but it was just a way.
Chris:
Okay.
Kelly:
And it was perfect because it was a small-ish town, but had much more than Maine has, honestly. And I met some of my best friends there. And I loved it there. And then after 9/11 happened, it changed my perspective. And when I came home, Maine looked a lot more appealing. And I saw things that I’ve driven by a thousand times that just seemed so much more beautiful at that time than they had when I was a teenager.
Chris:
Sorry. 9/11 happened, you were in school or you were out of school working there? What happened?
Kelly:
I was in Michigan in my senior year.
Chris:
In your senior year. Okay.
Kelly:
And I wasn’t coming home at that point. I really, really wasn’t. And something about that just shifted my perspective just enough. But what’s interesting about it is a lot of people that grow up here, don’t leave a lot, if they end up staying here. But we get out and see things, every chance we get. And it’s always great to come back, and to have this very soft place to land.
Chris:
So, you graduated, and then you took a job, or what did you do next? Were you already committed to going back home or were you looking around there, or what was going on at that point?
Kelly:
No. So, I really was very non-committal but had this seed in my head that I wanted to come back. And frankly, I had started dating my high school boyfriend a little bit again. So, that may have looking back-
Chris:
Influenced you looking back. Yeah.
Kelly:
Influencer. But so, I came back and I got a 40 hour a week, unpaid internship.
Chris:
Nice. Good job.
Kelly:
Now, people would say-
Chris:
Do people do that now? Does that exist? No. Right?
Kelly:
It doesn’t exist. But that was literally the best career move I have ever, ever made.
Chris:
See that. See that. If I told my kid that, he’d be like, “Wait, what? You did work and no one paid you for that. That’s a thing.” I’m like, “Yeah. That’s a thing.” And that’s actually how it used to work. So, what was that in? Was that in a marketing field or some sort of… What was it? What was that internship? Is that what it was?
Kelly:
It was in the marketing field. And so again, it was the post 9/11 thing. So, everything was colored by that. And I worked at the local Red Cross chapter, 40 hours a week. And I was there, the only marketing person. So, the marketing person went on maternity leave. So, I worked with her for about three weeks and she left, and it was me. So, I learned a ton that summer.
Chris:
So, you had to just learn.
Kelly:
That was definitely trial by fire. And they were doing some really neat things. And from a public relations perspective, which was where my schooling foundation was, the Red Cross had just taken a pretty crazy beating over the course of 9/11. They had made some mistakes and they were recovering from that. And the way that the Red Cross was set up at the time was local control versus national control. So, that poor little local chapter really needed public relations help. And it was fun.
Chris:
And you were there for how long? How long were you in that role?
Kelly:
So, I was in that very specific internship role for four months, so the entire summer. And then I stayed on as a part-time intern for the next, I want to say year and a half or so.
Chris:
Okay. Did they pay you at this point? Were you getting paid a little bit?
Kelly:
Never paid.
Chris:
Nice. Look at you.
Kelly:
Never paid.
Chris:
You really paid your dues.
Kelly:
I worked on the coast at this restaurant and I made some bank there as a waitress. Bu yeah, I would have to work basically to go to that internship.
Chris:
Do you like being a waitress? I worked as a waiter. I lived in Miami, Florida, so similar. I was down there when 9/11 happened. And I remember specifically, I have family that were working in the city that day. And I remember the busy signals when I was calling them. And I remember that feeling of being like, I am… I never felt really far away until after that I realized how far I was. You can’t reach someone in something like that. But anyway, I was a waiter down there for a little bit and I just couldn’t do it. I loved the interaction with people that I loved, but I just couldn’t do it. I don’t know why. I don’t know what it was. It was not for me. Did you enjoy it or no?
Kelly:
So, I loved it so much. And I don’t think I could do it now, honestly. I think my body is too old, or my back would hurt. But I am super introverted. So, it really taught me how to extrovert and how to flex that muscle that really isn’t natural for me. And a friend, actually, a colleague that works at Twelve North and I, we’ve talked about how everything we know about marketing. We learned waiting tables. It’s a joke.
Chris:
I can see that.
Kelly:
But a lot of it really is colored by those experiences that we had and the salesmanship, which again, isn’t natural for me and just making conversation. And I worked at Cook’s Lobster House on the coast. So, every time I walked into-
Chris:
That’s awesome.
Kelly:
… the big waiting the dining room, it was the ocean.
Chris:
It’s beautiful, right?
Kelly:
And this historic bridge. And yeah, you couldn’t complain about it, honestly. Most people were happy there.
Chris:
It’s true what you say about the marketing and sales as a waiter or waitress, because you’re making your own money. You have to make your money. So, the better you are, the more outgoing you are, the more you can relate, the more you can get on somebody’s level, the more you can speak directly to them, more likely you are to get a better tip or do better. And that’s exactly what marketing is. Right? Message, right time, speaking the language and speaking directly to somebody. So, it’s interesting that you bring that up. It’s very, very true.
Kelly:
It’s very true. And one of the things I think is so interesting about it is as a waitress or a server, you have to be in the dining room and looking pretty cool and not sweaty. And you’re not allowed to swear. And then you go back into the kitchen where they’re like, “F you.”
Chris:
You let them fly.
Kelly:
I’m making that. And they can do whatever they want and say whatever they want. And you just have to go back out like, “I’m good. Everything is great. And do you want another margarita with a upsell of patron or something?” So yeah, I do think that, just that kind of… And the fast-paced nature of it and everything.
Kelly:
And then the other thing is in marketing, you get your hands dirty. I don’t care what position you’re in. There’s no position that you’re doing where you’re not doing something else, like other duties as assigned.
Chris:
This is true.
Kelly:
And it’s akin to getting under the table with the little broom or whatever. Yeah.
Chris:
So, you’re doing this at the Red Cross. Then where’s your next move? Did you join another company? What was your next move as you grow to where you got to now?
Kelly:
So, real quick with the Red Cross, I got to go on national disaster assignments.
Chris:
Oh man.
Kelly:
From an experience perspective, there’s nothing else like it.
Chris:
Wow.
Kelly:
So, I got to do PR on live television for hurricanes and tornadoes. You’re by yourself. It’s like very much again, trial by fire. So, I did that.
Chris:
Wait, so did you go down? Were you there while they’re happening or did they deploy you afterwards? You weren’t one of those people in the jumpsuits with the rain and the hair flying.
Kelly:
Kind of. So yeah, the tornado would happen and then they would call all of the people in. It’s very well organized. And so, public affairs was one of those things. And I knew PR was my thing, but that really solidified it. And the direct connection between great communications and helping people, making a difference was super evident there.
Kelly:
So, I went from doing that to a job as director of communications and events at an event center. And I got that job from the director of finance at the Red Cross. So, this started my, like never burn a bridge and everyone you know is a good connection, because that was the first time that happened. And I don’t know that it’s not happened once throughout my career.
Chris:
And this is local now, still. Right? You’re still in Maine.
Kelly:
Still local.
Chris:
Okay. Yeah.
Kelly:
Yep.
Chris:
All right. And how was that different than when you were in the Red Cross? Was it similar? Obviously, what you were doing, you’re not in disasters and things like that, but how was it a little bit different? Was it a structural difference in the company or what was it like?
Kelly:
Yeah. So, I worked for a national events company. So, all they do is like go into these big arenas and run them, and make money, very different from the Red Cross in that respect. And you work like a million hours. And you probably get paid like $2 and 40 cents an hour after all a sudden-
Chris:
Isn’t that always fun when you do the calculation, when you’re like-
Kelly:
Not good. But really great experience. And again, a lot more public relations on your feet, thinking. And this was the job where I distinctly remember people talking about BlackBerries, and I thought they were talking about actual blackberries. I was like, “What are they talking about?”
Chris:
What is your obsession with BlackBerries?
Kelly:
Which now sounds so antiquated and funny that I ever thought that, but it just wasn’t a thing. And that’s where I really started to make the connection between texting and marketing, and some very early like paper, click advertising, email advertising, and content marketing, which was super different then. But in the arena, you didn’t have money for anything, so you would make up these ways to collaborate with local pizzerias or something like that. So, it really started laying the foundation for this content marketing boom that everybody is involved with now.
Chris:
For people that don’t know what a BlackBerry is, for then when listening, I don’t know how to describe it. It’s like one of the first smartphones that existed. It was like this rectangular. I don’t know how to describe. You guys should Google a BlackBerry. It’s the best way. It had a little scroll thing and a big keyboard. Right? There as a keyboard on.
Kelly:
And actual buttons.
Chris:
Yeah. Real buttons, all the letters and buttons. There’s those classic pictures of people just staring down with both their thumbs and they’re just typing and typing, and typing on a BlackBerry. That was our first foray really into smartphone world. Oh God, the BlackBerries. No, they’re not around anymore. Right?
Kelly:
No. And in fact, I heard a joke about a BlackBerry being like antiquated the other day. So, I thought that was really funny that I once was on a conference call and was like, “What are they talking about?” And I thought it was [inaudible 00:13:21]
Chris:
So, now you’re in an agency now. And you said you were in agency before you were in this agency, or this was your first foray agency?
Kelly:
This is my first agency. So, shortly after I worked at the event center, I got into healthcare marketing. And that became, I would say, I’ve always said that PR was my one true love in school. Once I found that PR existed and that you could just communicate with people and get them information in order to help a business or an organization, I thought that was the coolest thing ever. And so, that became my first love. And then healthcare really became my second in terms of career. And combining those two has been my entire life’s work. I’m a dork about it actually.
Chris:
That’s okay.
Kelly:
I really love it so much.
Chris:
There’s nothing wrong with being a dork. I’m a dork with a lot of things. And I find that’s totally okay and it should be embraced more. And that word should be used more often in my opinion.
Kelly:
I feel good about it.
Chris:
Same.
Kelly:
But yeah, I like to acknowledge it.
Chris:
Same. So, what do you find to be the main differences in an agency when you’re working? I was telling you before when we started this, at Overit, it’s my first experience in an agency. And really the main thing is just, you’re not working with just one. When you’re working for a company in a role, you’re just trying to grow and build the marketing plan and sales around one company, and a set of products possibly and services, but all under one portfolio of one business.
Chris:
When you’re in an agency, there’s multiple different businesses. In some aspects, you can tell me a little bit about Twelve North. But at Overit, we have different verticals and different industries that we’re in. We do healthcare. We do home services. We do higher ed. And so, your brain is constantly shifting, which I enjoy, because it keeps it fresh, but you can also recognize how it could be very depleting. It can be very tiring at the end of the day because your brain is constantly going. So, what’s your experience been and what are the differences that you’ve really seen?
Kelly:
So, after being in healthcare for, gosh, like 17 years, it’s definitely refreshing to have different verticals. And we’re very small. We are a boutique agency. But we’re doing a lot in the retail space, still in the healthcare space. And really working with… I think, I became, I got the reputation of being a little bit of a brand fixer. So, working with companies that need that kind of, whether it’s a new brand or really need help figuring out something that maybe went wrong before. So, that’s definitely still the niche. I think that it is exhausting in terms of just like your brain is always all over the place and everywhere, but that’s how I think anyway, like a thousand tabs open. And I don’t really know how to think any other way at this point.
Kelly:
But honestly, it’s so hard because I came into this after having been in COVID, on fire with COVID for a couple of years as a communicator. So, nothing touches that in terms of stress or anything. So, the thing I struggle with the most is less colleagues, less feedback. You know what I mean? Or the feedback is very different. Because if you’re sitting across the table from someone who gets paid by the same organization as you, I think it’s easier for them to be like, “I don’t like anything.”
Chris:
Yeah. Yeah, it’s not.
Kelly:
So, it’s very different. And learning all of that also over Zoom is interesting.
Chris:
Tell me about it. I know. It was a big learning curve for us too. But I was interested in something you said about reputation as someone that helps brands fix brands or not so much fix or maybe there’s things that they want to highlight better or bring out. Did you feel that your experience in PR and communications, especially around in disaster or things that were problematic, did that help you in this regard? Because I imagine that your experience when you’re trying to communicate things through disasters or problems in brands, maybe we don’t view it as a disaster, but again, it needs fixing and identification of problems. So, tell me a little bit about how that helped you there.
Kelly:
Yeah. I definitely think the foundation of PR is to fix something or build something. So, the structure of how you approach that is always the same. And I’m a big straight face test person in terms of how you communicate with people and how you retain public attention of your target audience. So, I definitely think it did.
Kelly:
Also though, I’ve really always had this integrated marketing communications approach. So, when we start talking about tech stacking and all of this stuff in marketing, I am always the person who’s very old school. I mean, I mentioned the BlackBerry already. People are like, “This woman is stuck in the nineties or something.” But I’m really not. But I do think I’m the person who’s like, yeah, but it’s still people.
Chris:
Yep, it is.
Kelly:
It’s still relationships. You’ve got to find a way to do that. And if your tech stacking works for that, that’s great. But good communication isn’t always possible with AI or something like that, even though people would say it is. I’m the person that’s devil’s advocate on that, I think all the time.
Chris:
It is so interesting you brought this up. I mentioned at the beginning, we were talking about this yesterday with the team internally about how this whole thing with Facebook that’s going on right now, Instagram and Facebook, and how even Google, I mean, Google is still hiding behind all of… They’re probably sitting there being like, “Yes, man, Facebook has taken all this crap.”
Kelly:
Yes.
Chris:
But if they do the same thing. They’re selling data and they’re targeting. And they’re doing the same thing. I mean, they might be doing it in a different approach than Facebook, but it all hinges on our personal data being exploited for the ability to sell, sell product.
Chris:
And so, we had this internal conversation about diversification of strategy in marketing and communication, and not having all of your eggs in one basket or baskets like a Facebook or something like that. And there’s both, there’s two sides to the argument. Like one side, which I totally understand that I see is that, yes, there are some ethical things going on there. That’s a debate to have. But in terms of people saying, “Well, they’re putting profit ahead of people.” That’s what companies do, right? That’s their mission. They have a mandate to make as much money as possible. And until there’s better ways to do it that are safer for the consumer, it’s very difficult to recommend to businesses, “You should take all of your money out of these platforms and not give them. You shouldn’t pay any money to Google, Facebook or anyone. We should try something else.” Because there’s not really anything else really on digital that’s really going to work. Right? So, there’s that side of the bait.
Chris:
But there is something to say about diversification. It’s not all about hard on those digital channels. Right? So, let’s talk a little bit about that. How do you approach that? Especially as this grows, you do want to be wary about what’s going on. And to your point, it can’t all just be through AI and through these algorithms. So, do you think about that in your strategies? And how do you approach that? I mean, certain clients do better in certain mediums. Right? What’s your take at your agency? What are you guys talking about?
Kelly:
Yeah. So, I’ve thought about that for a long time. Before this whole thing with Facebook this week, which was honestly like, I wasn’t too surprised it happened.
Chris:
Same.
Kelly:
And so, real quick too, my dad is a Marine and he was always like, “No one owes you anything.” Right? So, I go through life thinking like, “No one owes you anything.” And I think that about these platforms like, what do they really owe us?
Chris:
Right.
Kelly:
I mean, you’re spending a lot of your time in there. But we all saw what happened in Myspace. You know what I mean? So, for anyone, especially business owners to throw all their eggs into one basket, doesn’t seem wise, just at first blush. And we’ve seen this happen too with TikTok, where TikTok is amazing. If you want to sell a product, I mean, you can reach a lot of people quickly on TikTok, and you can go hot real quick and you can also get doused with water real quick too. And then it’s done.
Chris:
Yeah, it’s done.
Kelly:
They might get your account down. So, whenever I see people like that and they’re complaining about it, I think, well, what’s the plan though?
Chris:
That’s the thing.
Kelly:
That happened to 20 other accounts. So, you’ve got to have a plan. And I do think you’ve got to be on all of these platforms or you you’ve got to have a plan, right? Like a content strategy plan. Where are you? Really focus on what your messages are and who your target audiences are, and who’s speaking for your company. And I think things like podcasts are really great, because you can distribute via Facebook and Instagram, and gain audience there. But if you’ve got your own media then it’s yours.
Chris:
Right. It’s yours. Then it just becomes, where are you going to push it out? Not necessarily-
Kelly:
Where are you going to push it out? So, on a day, not yesterday, but the day before when people didn’t have anything else to do, if your stuff is still there and you’re still building your content, and you’ve still got this home base, that’s what you really need. And you should be thinking about where else are you distributing?
Kelly:
Also, I’m a big Twitter fan. For whatever reason, I reach a lot of people via Twitter. It tends to be my place, where I feel like I have good conversations and make good relationships with people. It sounds, again, very dorky. But don’t sleep on some of those platforms. I think people get so excited about Instagram reels and stories, and Facebook, this and the TikTok, but you’ve really got to think about, are people really listening to you there? And I think there are certain businesses, they lost a ton of revenue on Monday. And that’s terrible. But where else could you be?
Chris:
Right. That’s the thing. If you’re going to say, “I think that we shouldn’t be here and here, and here.” The next logical thing would be, but we’re going go be here. And so, until you can have the other here, you can’t really just wholesale be like, “We’re out.”
Chris:
The other thing too is saying to the clients is like, if they take a moral stance and they want to be ethical and say, “You know what, I am not going to be contributing to that out of principle.” As long as they understand the ramifications of what could happen, if they remove themselves from the platform, good for you. That’s on a customer and a business to decide. If they want to take that stance, who am I to say like, “You are crazy.” All I can say is like, “Here’s the kind of revenue you’re generating from that channel. And just know if you want to do that, you might lose this. But if you’re okay with that and you want to make it part of who you are as a brand, you could maybe win that back in other ways through that stance that you’re taking.” But they have to understand the ramifications.
Chris:
Where it gets a little dicey is taking a stance as an agency and saying, “We don’t support that.” Because at the end, it’s your business and your marketing spend. How you want to spend it, I’m going to help facilitate it. I’m only going to advise you on whether I think that’s a good place for you to be.” We’re not an ethical counselor. So, I think it gets a little bit, it’s an interesting conversation, but again, if the client or the customer wants to take that stance, good for you. You just have to understand what’s going to happen out of that. And then we got to talk about what else are you going to do?
Chris:
Interestingly, with the content, I love that, and I’ve been a content producer for a long time. I’ve been podcasting for 10 years. And it’s funny, both my brothers are in the game too. And remember when collecting emails was like the thing. You had to get email addresses. And that ebbed and flowed. It still really matters to get an email address. People think the emailing is dead. And there are SMS, yes. But in the end, if you have a tangible list of humans that have given you their information willingly, and you’re growing that over time and you have something in the end, that has a lot of value, even on digital, it has a lot of value nowadays.
Chris:
But you’re right, because if everything disappeared tomorrow, those channels, and you were still producing content, you still have something that you can push. Even if you had to mail something in an envelope to everyone and say, “Hey, read this article I wrote.” You have something of value. So, it’s a good point to focus on your content, because content is always king in my opinion.
Kelly:
And to nurture those relationships. If people respected you enough to give their email address at any point, give them good stuff along the way.
Chris:
Right. Right. Because they’re saying, “Yes, I’m enjoying what you’re doing.” And so, you have to respect that and be able to supply that.”
Kelly:
I think so.
Chris:
I think so too. I mean, it’s not just like a grab. You’re not just trying to, “Hey, I got another name and I just want to throw that up there.” We talk about that for us at Overit and at our own marketing, we have a lot of people on a list. And so, we try really hard to produce good content for them.
Chris:
And this podcast we’re doing, this is not an Overit sale of Overit. This is just a conversation between two people about interesting things that we both find interesting, and that hopefully, other people find interesting. So, you know this, it’s branding and it’s another way for them to be close to the brand, but it’s not all about selling. It’s about producing something that matters, and that’s really, really, that people can really gravitate to.
Chris:
You’re a mother. You have three children. That’s what you said to me. Give the ages again for everybody.
Kelly:
16, 13 and 10.
Chris:
16, 13 and 10. 16, 13 are the boys, and you have a 10 year old girl. Is that right?
Kelly:
Yes.
Chris:
Okay. The first question is, how are you finding the male versus female situation? Do you find that it’s wholesale very different? Are your boys similar because they’re boys? Because you have two boys. I only have one boy, so I don’t know the difference.
Kelly:
So, first of all, if Allie, the 10 year old was born first, I think she’d be it. She is fiery. She’s awesome. She’s one of the coolest people on the planet, but she’s a whole lot.
Chris:
Super fiery. Yeah. Yeah.
Kelly:
She is extra and she has a thought about everything and she shares it. She’s phenomenal. And I say that to her like as a joke, but I’m not joking. So, she’s more fraught with emotion for sure, but that could just be her.
Chris:
Like her age or something. Did you find the equivalent age in the male similar? I’m just curious about that.
Kelly:
The boys never cared about things that she cares about. And I’m talking from good stuff, like cleaning up the environment, being really kind and inclusive. They just never thought about that. I don’t know if they weren’t that. They just didn’t express it in the way that she does. So, those kinds of things, but also like, “Mary Sue was mean to so and so.” And I’m just like, “Okay, so get over it.” And she literally can’t get over it ever. But the boys would jump off a tall rock.
Chris:
Right. Okay. So, it’s like those stereotypical boy things that boys do.
Kelly:
A little bit.
Chris:
Yeah. Yeah.
Kelly:
But they all three play athletics. And she’s very athletic as are they, and they’re all into art and stuff like that. So, in that perspective, I think they’re pretty diverse.
Chris:
So, bringing it back to social media. So, in my other life, I host a mental health podcast and I talk about this a lot.
Kelly:
Very cool.
Chris:
I talk about it a lot. A lot of people that listen are constantly writing me about like… I always say like, I’m not a doctor, I’m not a psychologist. People say that I have a PhD in neuroscience, they think that that means that I’m some sort of therapist. I’m not a therapist, but I’ve recognized the brain is a bunch of wires. And when you grow, it’s wiring up to the age of five. Once you hit about seven or eight, you’re pretty much wired, then it just becomes like pruning. And when you have a ball of a wire that’s tangled, it’s much harder to untangle that ball. You’d rather have it nice and laid out as you grow. Same thing works with your mental health and your connection. So, you want to try to along the way, let kids know that it’s okay to talk about X, Y, and Z. It’s okay to feel a certain way.
Chris:
It’s just that the influence for kids nowadays is so vast. When we grew up, it was very controlled. We were home. We went to school and we came home, everything stopped. That was it. So, even if I had the worst day ever, or I was picked on or called dork or whatever, it stopped once I walked home and I got home. That it never ends. The last thing people see at night. Right. I think actually the woman, the whistleblower actually from Facebook said the same thing yesterday. So, how are you experiencing that as a mom and somebody in marketing, who understands the channels really, really well? How has that been for you? And just your thoughts on it as a mom?
Kelly:
I think first of all, I’m grateful that I do understand the channels, because I do think it puts me a little bit ahead. Although, like Snapchat and things like that, man, they get away from me. And I’m like, “Oh, that’s a trend that seems special and new that I didn’t know about.”
Kelly:
But I will say that I think my kids, and you can always be wrong about this and it can always change, but I think that they do have a healthy relationship with social media. The boys more than my daughter, who’s a little bit younger. And so, that could be a little bit of a factor. But we talk about stuff in a way that we did not talk about stuff in my house when I was growing up.
Chris:
You mean like with them, they’ll talk to you about certain things. Open dialogue.
Kelly:
And I ask questions that my parents would never dream of asking. And I use words that my parents would never dream of using, because they’re on social media. And you got to be careful what pictures you’re taking. Because I remember doing a lot of dumb stuff when I was a kid that isn’t memorialized. And boys and girls say and do things when they’re 13 that they wouldn’t say and do when they’re 26 and 36, and 46.
Kelly:
So, we talk very openly about what’s appropriate, what’s inappropriate, what the consequences are for doing something, not assuming you’re not going to do this dumb thing, because your friends are doing it.
Chris:
Of course. Right.
Kelly:
And I mean taking pictures of body parts, asking for pictures from people. Those things like screenshots, they happen, all of the things. So, we just talk about it. It drives my husband crazy a little bit.
Chris:
But I think that the only thing that I always say to people is the number one thing you can do with your kids along the way is talk to them, talk to them. It doesn’t matter the length of the dialogue sometimes, what it is. But if you’re talking to them about stuff that they know that’s going on in their life and you’re being open, and you have a dialogue with them, that really matters. It sounds very obvious, but I don’t think it’s done in a lot of cases. I think a lot of people take the stance of like, “Oh, I don’t really want to know.”
Kelly:
Well, it’s very uncomfortable.
Chris:
Very uncomfortable. It’s got to be very uncomfortable.
Kelly:
It’s super.
Chris:
I haven’t had that yet because I only have a nine year old, but it’ll get there. And you got to be willing to talk to them, the language that they normally hear. Because like you said, it’s going to happen. If you think your kid isn’t going to send a picture or get pictures, it going to happen. Because when I was that age, God, if we had the technology, I always think back, I was telling my wife, “Can you imagine what kind of stuff?” Thank God, there was no cameras around at certain points.
Kelly:
I honestly can’t imagine. And so, they really have to think every word that they write, every picture that they send. And a lot of it’s like a piece of gravel, “Why are you sending that?” “I’m on a streak.” “Okay. I have no idea what that means, but whatever. That’s so insignificant. But what are you doing when I’m not around?” And it’s gotten to the point where I give the football team rides home and I’m like, “You’re not sending any of those pictures. Are you?”
Chris:
They’re like, “Oh geez, mom, why are saying that?”
Kelly:
And you know what’s interesting is I think that they’re really wanting to talk about it. They talk about it.
Chris:
They do.
Kelly:
It’s actually very interesting because when I was a kid, I would’ve died. If my mom had brought that up to my friends, I would simply have asked, I would not have been able to talk about it. But we’ve been talking about it for a long time. And I was driving a kid home the other day, I said, “What is the point? What are you doing on Snapchat, if you’re sending this many pictures?” And he was like, “There is no point. I wish I didn’t have to do it. I don’t want to.”
Chris:
Right. So, that’s it. So, also you’re desensitizing it a little bit by talking about it so much, it’s because coming like a normal thing. And I think what that does is when they really do have to talk to you about something, that really does matter, or that is really bad, they might be more like, “We’ve talked about all of this stuff. My mom has already talked to me about sending these pictures.” It’s an easier in for the conversation.
Kelly:
Yes. In fact there have been a couple of times, so my 16 year old is actually turning 16 this week. And so, there have been a couple of times where like, “Maybe you could have censored that just a little bit.” But to him we’ve talked so much and so openly that he doesn’t. And so, which is better this way. But there are certain things I’m like, “I don’t know that I needed to know everything you talked about on the bus right home.”
Chris:
Do you follow them on social? How does that work? What’s the rule there? I know people that set up fake accounts, so that they can follow their kids, so they don’t know that their parents are following them. You don’t want to give it away because they’re listening to this. You can say like, “I plead the fifth, I take the fifth.”
Kelly:
No. So, actually I’m not a big fan of the fake account.
Chris:
Because it’s very what it is, it’s devious.
Kelly:
But I don’t think I need.
Chris:
It’s working against everything you’re saying, which is to be open and communicative.
Kelly:
Yeah. I don’t think I need a fake account, but I don’t judge someone who does. I get it. You employ all strategies because you’re trying to figure it out. And it’s new. For people in our generation, I think it’s a lot. But I don’t like a fake account because it is a little bit devious, like hiding. And we try to teach them not to do that.
Kelly:
It is interesting because my middle son, especially won’t tell my husband stuff and he’ll tell me. And I’m like, “Thanks.” And then you just have to take a deep breath and figure out what you’re going to do with it after. So, we really do try to give them space. Punishment isn’t really a thing unless it’s like, “Okay. Well, you would’ve gotten in trouble for that regardless of where it happened.” Kind of thing.
Chris:
It has to be proportional to what it is, otherwise it gets nuts. I agree with that. We do that too. My son says that to me be like, “Do you have to tell mom things like that when I tell you things?” And I’m like, “Well, it depends on what it is. I mean, certain things, if you tell me, I can keep it to myself, but then there are certain things that she’s your mother. She’s got to know. And I got to tell her because, not only should she know, but I’m one parent and I need to get help from the other parent. And I need advice because I don’t know everything.” I don’t think he understands that concept. Sometimes he looks at me and he’s like, “You know everything about everything. You just deal with it. You don’t need to tell her.” And I’m like, “No, I don’t. I need her to help me too.”
Kelly:
Collaboration is key.
Chris:
It is key.
Kelly:
Yeah. You do need backup. And I’m just an ear sometimes.
Chris:
We were talking about this the other night, where it’s like I’m the disciplinarian in the relationship. So, I’m the real tough person. And not that my wife isn’t tough, but he knows how to get her to… If he wants more ice cream or more something, he’s going to her first. Or if he wants to play another hour on the video game, he’s definitely going to her first. And I think that’s okay to be honest with you. I really do. People say I got to be on the same page. I think it’s different when you’re going against the parenting, but it’s okay for that. That’s how I grew up. I was terrified of my father. And I would go to my mom for certain things.
Chris:
And then Luca will say, my son will say to me sometimes, “Dad, sometimes I feel like you’re very strict.” And I say, “You know what? I may seem like that, but one of these days you’re going to be faced with something really stupid and you might actually not do the stupid thing because you’re afraid of me. And if that happens, then I did my job. And so, it might seem disproportionate right now, but I’m just trying to set it up.” I sound like such a parent. I sound like such a dad right now. And this is bad.
Kelly:
It’s okay. And I agree about the… I think for my kids, it’s different things. They’ll want to come to me for different things. They’ll want to go to their dad for it. And I think that that’s good. I think it speaks to our personalities and perspectives that we bring to it.
Chris:
Correct.
Kelly:
And that’ll persist as they get older too. And I think that my wife, I married her because she has certain things that I don’t. Right? And she married me because I do certain things that she doesn’t. So, to think that we have the same level of advice to offer is just not true. And the fact that he can recognize that, tells me that he understands who we are. Right? And that’s okay. There’s nothing wrong with that.
Chris:
It’s actually pretty cool. Yeah.
Kelly:
Very cool. We have a couple minutes left. So, let me just, I want to ask you this. We’ll close on this, bring it back to agency life and just marketing. In strategies and things like that, that you’re doing with clients and things, are there some new things or different things that you’re excited about coming up or some things that you’re doing for clients now in terms of like, is it digital or going back to old school marketing? I’m just curious, are there some new things that you’re thinking about trying or you’ve been trying that you’re really excited about?
Chris:
So, I really think maybe the last nine months, it’s really been a lot about paying more attention to the old school communication, really connecting with the audience and building a plan around that, and then finding the digital tool to reach them, and to distribute the content, and to be where they are, and keep their attention. And so, I think it feels a little bit more like finding a balance.
Kelly:
Yeah. Strategic, really listening. Yeah. Yeah. Not just like, “Let’s go here, here and here because that’s where everybody is.”
Chris:
Yeah. And not just pounding out the information. I think people are really tired. And so, I think you’ve got to be really thoughtful about what you’re putting out into the world. And I think the other thing is branding, I think is more important now than it ever has been. It’s still almost impossible to prove ROI on branding. But having that brand awareness, and I think that that is so important. And I think that people are starting to realize how important that is.
Kelly:
So, if people want to learn more about you or follow you on Twitter, where’s your game? Where do you want people to go to find you and interact with you?
Chris:
Sure. So, me personally on Twitter at KL David. And I tweet pretty frequently about all things parenting and marketing, and public relations.
Kelly:
Cool.
Chris:
And then you can find Twelve North Agency on Facebook at Twelve North Agency.
Kelly:
Okay. And the website for Twelve North is Twelve North Agency or twelvenorth.com.
Chris:
Twelvenorthagency.com.
Kelly:
All right. Cool. Well, this was so much fun. Thank you so much for doing this. You’re our first virtual guest, and it was perfect.
Chris:
Okay. That’s good.
Kelly:
So, I was not bothered by any of the Maine sounds in the background. So, thank you so much.
Chris:
Good. Thank you so much for having me. And it was great to be here.