Chris:
Did you ever think you’d find yourself in an executive position running the whole ship by yourself? Our next guest does exactly that quite successfully. Today we’re going to talk about her journey from growing up on a farm, to getting a degree in criminal justice. A degree that she currently doesn’t in quotes, use, but finds herself in a role that she loves, helping hundreds of people on a daily basis. Stay tuned for another episode.
Chris:
All right, welcome back to another episode of the Get Overit podcast. I am your host, Dr. Christopher Fasano. On today’s episode, we will be speaking with Vanessa LaClair from the Empire State Society of Association Executives. I want to remind everybody to go to podcast.overit.com to find all of our previous episodes. You can also subscribe to our YouTube channel and other pod players to make it more easy for you to get each episode automatically delivered to your device; Apple Podcast, iHeart Radio, Spotify, whatever’s easier for you, you can find the Get Overit podcasts there. So I want to welcome Vanessa to the show. Vanessa, thank you so much for joining us.
Vanessa:
Thank you for having me.
Chris:
So, before we begin and go through your life and the journey and things like that, why don’t you introduce yourself currently, where you are with ESSAE, as we talked about how that’s pronounced, and just give a little background to the role there?
Vanessa:
Sure, sure. So it’s Vanessa LaClair, executive director with the Empire State Society of Association Executives. Short it’s called ESSAE, not with a Y, but with an E. I have been there now for about five and a half years. I’m coming up on my sixth year; February, is when I took over. So it’s been a great ride. It is the association for associations. So I kind of sometimes laugh, that’s kind of like a pyramid scheme.
Chris:
Association for associations.
Vanessa:
That is right.
Chris:
We’re going to come back around towards the end of the show and really dive into what their mission is and what the role is. But why don’t you give us a little quick, brief of what ESSAE does and what its main core mission is. And then we’re going to talk a little bit about how you got there.
Vanessa:
Yeah. So as I said, association for associations, because in every state, there is an association that represents every industry that you can possibly think of. So ESSAE’s goal is to educate, to network and connect association professionals who run those organizations, so that they are better equipped to serve their clients and their membership base. They’re better educated. We just provide them with the tools and the services that they need in order to just make sure that their memberships are successful.
Chris:
Okay. So like networking, bringing things together, has this always been a passion of yours, something like that, and interacting like that? I’m trying to understand how… This is part of the journey, how you got into that role. Previously before this, did you have similar roles? Did something like this?
Vanessa:
It’s funny you say that because most people, especially in maybe my age group, you fell into associations. Didn’t know that associations were a career path. There was no schooling back then for associations. There is now. I think there’s a lot more now for people to go to college for, but most of us fell into the world of associations, not knowing that it was a career path. I started my journey as a criminal justice major.
Chris:
Interesting.
Vanessa:
So try to connect the dots on that one.
Chris:
Yeah.
Vanessa:
Yep.
Chris:
So, take me back to a younger Vanessa. What were your interests growing up? Talk about are you from this area that we’re in? Albany, New York as we’re recording this. Are you from this area originally?
Vanessa:
So I’m about three hours north. So if you know where Plattsburgh, New York is, I’m about 45 minutes west. My family is all still there in the middle of nowhere, farm country.
Chris:
Okay. So very farm, very country.
Vanessa:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yes.
Chris:
Okay. So how was that growing up?
Vanessa:
Well, I only had 70 kids in my graduating high school class.
Chris:
Wow.
Vanessa:
So very small. I think there were only 500 people overall in the whole school. So very small. Farms were-
Chris:
Did you farm?
Vanessa:
We were dairy farmers. My father was a dairy farmer, passed down. His family was. My mother’s side were potato farmers.
Chris:
Now, diary farm to sell? Or dairy farm just to sustain… Just you guys had cows and you did it for yourself, or did you have things you produced and sold?
Vanessa:
Sold.
Chris:
Okay.
Vanessa:
Mostly sold.
Chris:
Okay.
Vanessa:
Yep. Yeah. From what I remember. We moved off the farm when I was 14.
Chris:
Okay. All right.
Vanessa:
So from what I remember, we baled hay, we had the cows, we sold everything. It was just [crosstalk 00:04:18]-
Chris:
So were you out there in the mornings? Is that how that rolled? I always envision the farms, it’s like that 4:00 AM, everyone’s out there.
Vanessa:
No. Only because I was young. I was on the farm, in the barns. I liked that, but I was not necessarily allowed to be bailing hay.
Chris:
Get out of here.
Vanessa:
I would help. I would try to drive the tractor, or drive whatever I could, but I was still young and my father didn’t want me to get hurt, so stayed off of that.
Chris:
Okay. All right. And so, you then, you said you moved out from there when you were 14?
Vanessa:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Chris:
Where did you go from there?
Vanessa:
We just moved to another smaller town.
Chris:
Just another smaller town?
Vanessa:
Yep.
Chris:
Okay. And then you went to college somewhere, locally?
Vanessa:
Went to SUNY Plattsburgh; graduated.
Chris:
Okay. So you stayed up in the area.
Vanessa:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Chris:
Okay. And criminal justice, you said?
Vanessa:
Yes.
Chris:
And what was it about criminal justice that you were drawn to?
Vanessa:
I think it’s because my father was in corrections. He just recently retired. He was 47 years in corrections and I thought, “Okay, criminal justice.” But it wasn’t my first major. I think I changed my major at least four times before I got there.
Chris:
Like a lot of people do. [crosstalk 00:05:16] And what were some of the other ones you were thinking about?
Vanessa:
First to start off, probably a veterinarian, marine biologist-
Chris:
Yes. I want my son to be a marine biologist. I was just talking to him about this the other day. I went to school at the University of Miami in Florida. I think it’s my way of getting him to go there, so I can sort of relive my college years down in Florida and like, “Oh, they have a great Marine biology program.” So, out of college, you didn’t go into that criminal justice world at all right away?
Vanessa:
No.
Chris:
What was your first sort of step in your professional career?
Vanessa:
So, first step, right after graduating, association lobby world was very politically connected. My father knew someone as we do, and connected me with an association in Albany and said, “My daughter’s looking for work. Would you be willing to interview her?” And that was my first association.
Chris:
So your first job really out of school was in an association?
Vanessa:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Chris:
Okay. All right. How would one describe what an association does if someone was to ask, “Well, what is an association in general?”
Vanessa:
So, associations represent a subset of people or an industry. So, if you are… Like the funeral directors. They need someone to represent them on advocacy and education, provide them with best practices. So it’s very niche in certain ones. The realtors is another great organization. The spa and salon, a bowling association. Everybody has something.
Chris:
I’m just curious. How does an association be born? In other words, can someone just say, “I want to create an association?”
Vanessa:
Yes.
Chris:
Okay. So there’s no, establish, you have to… Are there regulations as to what-
Vanessa:
There are.
Chris:
Okay, there are.
Vanessa:
Yep. So associations can be a 501 C6, a C3, there’s different ways to organize it. It could be all volunteer based, or it could have paid staff, but they all have-
Chris:
But it’s not a union, correct?
Vanessa:
No.
Chris:
It’s not… Okay.
Vanessa:
It’s like a union. They always kind of… If you were going to look at it and compare it, it’d be very similar to a union.
Chris:
Okay.
Vanessa:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Chris:
What would be a major difference? Unions, people pay dues on, but people pay to be in association, right?
Vanessa:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Chris:
It’s just a difference on how they lobby on the behalf of their members maybe?
Vanessa:
Correct.
Chris:
Is that what it is?
Vanessa:
Associations are more about the education.
Chris:
I see. Okay. Providing education and resources for people within that group.
Vanessa:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). Correct.
Chris:
Okay. All right. And so then, you stayed in associations as, in your career, you just moved from different ones?
Vanessa:
I did.
Chris:
Okay.
Vanessa:
Yes.
Chris:
Anyone in particular that was particularly difficult or you particularly enjoyed?
Vanessa:
So, I’ve been with three organizations, ESSAE being my third association. My longest stint was with the Independent Power Producers of New York, which I was there for 15 years.
Chris:
Okay.
Vanessa:
And that one represented the power industry in New York State Trade Association.
Chris:
So pretty big?
Vanessa:
Very big. Well, it had six staff members, but definitely represented-
Chris:
But the members, there was a lot.
Vanessa:
Very big numbers. Yeah.
Chris:
Okay. So it’s interesting. I try to always think about how people grew up and relate it to what they do, later on in life, to see if there’s any connection. You grew up in a very small place, on a farm, and you end up in associations representing a lot of members and providing those resources. Do you feel that anything that you’ve learned… I don’t know if it’s more of a, you grew up as more of an independent person. You didn’t have as many people around you in such a small place. Do you learn any skills you think differently there that might’ve helped you, or might’ve steered you, or prepared you for what you do now in helping people or groups of people?
Vanessa:
I think it’s just, I was very independent; worked very autonomously. Always a go getter. In college I had three jobs, so always wanted to make my mark and move and help and be there. And I think as I journeyed through associations, I realized, I first really liked the meetings and events side. I was very drawn to it, the hospitality sector. So I worked really hard to become into the director of meetings and events, earned my CMP in that area. Thought that, “All right, this is where I’m going to go. I am going to stay, here’s my box. I’m going to work in meetings and events. That’s going to be my next step.”
Vanessa:
After spending so much time with my second association, I was looking for the next step. What’s next to my career? And somebody said to me, when I was interviewing for a meeting specific role, “Why would you want to put yourself in this box, Vanessa? You deserve to look outside of that. Don’t put yourself in such-“
Chris:
Right. Not just in that one piece.
Vanessa:
Correct. You have so many other things, because associations, we wear so many hats because they’re usually small staff, less than five people. You wear about five different hats. You do a lot of different things. So she said to me, “Why would you… Think outside of the box. Where else can you put your skills to work? And have you ever thought about an executive director role?”
Chris:
And with those meetings, I’m just curious, meetings are a big part of associations?
Vanessa:
Huge part.
Chris:
And it’s interesting as we come out of a world situation where there were no meetings during the pandemic, I feel like those sort of things might be taken for granted a little bit. I recognize the value of being around humans and getting together and having meetings. You must’ve seen that through this pandemic time and how that affected associations?
Vanessa:
It was a huge impact.
Chris:
Yeah.
Vanessa:
Associations were really hurt because a lot of them depended on this big annual meeting; ESSAE included. And those got canceled. Their regularly scheduled meetings went virtual or they were canceled, or they were moved to 2022-23. So that was a huge budget, financial strain.
Chris:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). Right. Just because that is a major source of revenue, I would imagine. Right?
Vanessa:
Yes.
Chris:
These meetings.
Vanessa:
That is where associations build their budgets around is events and training and education of their members.
Chris:
So talk to us about how you got over that, right? At the associations did they have to all try to pivot to online? Did they do virtual meetings? Did that not pan out? What was that a little bit like?
Vanessa:
Yeah. We saw that… Actually our membership grew some because people were looking for resources.
Chris:
Right. For help, yeah.
Vanessa:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). How is ESSAE doing this so that we can learn from them and take that back to our organizations and use that. So when we first switched, we were trying out different types of technology. We had never used Zoom before, and then everyone’s using Zoom. And then we’re trying out different types of hybrid, but everybody really was behind a camera. What kind of equipment are you using? Where can I find this? And suddenly webcams were a hot commodity. You couldn’t find them anywhere.
Chris:
Couldn’t find them. I know, I know. Yep.
Vanessa:
No. So that’s what ESSAE was for. I mean, our members would come to us looking for that guidance. How do I… What are you doing? How can you support me during this time?
Chris:
So, tell me how that works? So you have a lot of these different associations and they have all different missions. I mean, they have maybe a core, maybe there’s a conserved mission amongst associations. Right? But they individually have their own little niche and things. How does that come to ESSAE in a way where you can help them individually? But obviously that model, there’s so many associations. How many associations in New York?
Vanessa:
There are thousands.
Chris:
Right. So how do you handle all of the different needs as they come in? Are there requests made? How does the structure work?
Vanessa:
They all have different needs, obviously, because they all serve different industries. However, associations in general, they’re very specific. We have to run by these set of rules. We have to know these set of things. We have to know about HR. We have to know about budgets and finances, and how to do an audit, and how to run an event, and those things have standards throughout. So they come to us for those resources. So we can provide that to them so that they use those tools to run their businesses. It’s a business tool for them. We’re not training them to learn more about their membership. That’s what they do.
Chris:
Right. You’re just providing them… I see, more of that high level-
Vanessa:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Chris:
I got it. Okay. So talk to me about executive director role. So, for people that are listening to this, younger people or people in their careers, tell me what that role is like? What does it entail? And what is your day to day like?
Vanessa:
So for me, I’m a single staff person. So, it’s different for everybody. But in a leadership role, you’re working with a board of directors who are volunteers for the most part, who help guide the strategic plan for your organization. You’re working with volunteers who serve on committees. ESSAE has like 10 to 12 committees currently, with numerous volunteers underneath that. And then we, it’s just all the things. You’re just learning about… You’re running-
Chris:
Every facet.
Vanessa:
Every facet of running a business comes under an executive director.
Chris:
So this is your first position in a leadership role like this? You’ve had others. I’m wondering, I guess my question is, what was it like to transition there? I mean, a lot of people in their careers that are listening to this aspire to grow and get to that level. But with every level people go up, there are different and sometimes more responsibilities that are harder, and take you maybe away from some of those day-to-day things that you enjoy. We were talking about me in science and how my day was just filled writing grants, which is not really what my true passion was. But as you rose up, you had to do those things in order to keep the business or the lab running. How did you transition to that and talk a little bit about how that was different?
Vanessa:
So it was quite a transition because you are responsible for the outcomes of this organization and where it’s going, and you are kind of guiding the ship and guiding these conversations and your board, and you’re helping everybody with the strategic plan of your organization. It is hard. You start to kind of think, “Well, I really like this,” but you have to do all of the things in order to make the organization run effectively. And especially if you are a small staff, you’re probably not going to be able to focus solely on one thing any longer, but you get to have a hand in… If you have staff that are working on that, helping them.
Vanessa:
I find it really enjoyable that it gives me a lot of… Just makes me feel good that when people come to me, “Okay, I’m really looking to do this. How do I get here? What’s the next step?” It’s education. We train people so that they can take, as you probably saw, I have a CAE designation. So it’s a Certified Association Executive, and that is the main training for taking that next step. A lot of people do it when they’re already in the leadership role, or they’re looking to be in that leadership role, because it gives them an overview of what a CAE or a CEO in this world looks like, and where you take that.
Chris:
Okay. You say you were a single staff member, meaning it’s just you?
Vanessa:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). It’s just me.
Chris:
Okay. And it was always that… No.
Vanessa:
No, it was not always that way. COVID, of course, is another challenge of COVID. We had to make some challenging decisions and we cut back. It was myself and another person and budget-wise, and because we had canceled all of our programming in-person, we had to make some tough decisions about where we were going to be able to save money. And it came at a cost to me, because now it’s me.
Chris:
Right, right.
Vanessa:
But I have a really strong board and they are very supportive and we wound up being able to apply for the Triple P funding and some of the other resources that were out there. It didn’t come right away, so we had to make some decisions leading up to it. Thankfully, we were able to qualify for a lot of these programs, which has helped us maintain the rest of 2020 and into 2021.
Chris:
But you said you did see some stuff grow during the pandemic time? You said it was because people were just looking for help in ways. So I always find that to be really human, if you will. I have another podcast that I host in mental health; a mental health podcast. And what I found during the pandemic was my lessons almost doubled. And to me, what was so heartfelt about that was that here people are struggling in a time where people struggle, and it showed me that people are looking for help in some way. They’re looking for an outlet to make themselves feel better or they’re looking for something that’s there. So it seems like that was the case in some aspects that people were like, “I don’t know what to do here. Let’s turn to some place like ESSAE that’s designed to help.”
Vanessa:
Absolutely. And we did see some associations come on because they had not been members before, but they saw what we were doing. We were pushing things out onto social media. We are very active. We wanted to provide people with the resources, and we were offering a lot of free webinars and access to members and non-members, so that people could see that we’re a resource. We’re here for you throughout this difficult time. It’s not to say that we didn’t experience a loss. We certainly did.
Chris:
Right. Of course.
Vanessa:
A lot of members were not able to renew. They had to drop. We understand that. We’re hopeful that when 2022 comes around, that it’ll be better, that things will change in their business, and they’ll be able to come back.
Chris:
So tell me a little bit about some current initiatives ESSAE has going on right now? Maybe how some of those have changed since the pandemic? Are they temporary? Are you planning… What is currently going on there and what does it look like going forward?
Vanessa:
Yeah. Our first… We’re back in person, finally, after canceling all of our in-person events. We’re ready to get off of Zoom and from behind the Zoom filters. So September 14th, we’re having our first in-person event, which had been canceled last year and it was a major revenue source for us. So, we’ve actually revamped the show with the help of our program and trade show committees, and our board of directors. We’ve changed the format of the show and changed some of the focus so that it’s going to look different and it’s going to be an adjustment, but we hope that that moves us forward and kind of takes that show in a different direction in the years to come.
Vanessa:
So we’re very hopeful that things stay positive and that everyone comes to this program and gets back together. I think people are really looking forward to being back in person. There’s some pent up demand to get back in front of clients and to be together again, because it’s really what ESSAE communicates is the sense of community and togetherness. And people become very close friends and they reach out to each other, their colleagues for resources and help. Like, “I heard you’re having this, we have a community community forum.” So it’s always been… We’ve been around for 40 years and it’s been a very close knit community for the whole time.
Chris:
Okay. So I like to ask guests this. We talked a little bit before we started the interview, that life is never really a straight line journey. It was not for me. It’s not like that for most. I imagine if I would ask people, they would say it wasn’t for them. In your journey of life and where you are in your career, what are some things that you would say that have helped you get over obstacles, get over things that you encountered? What are some values that you try to live by to help see you through? And especially, the pandemic is always a good test. That’s an extreme, but in a day-to-day, what are some of those things that help you get over it and get through it and get to the other side?
Vanessa:
I think one of the biggest things for me is as having a group of people, like-minded people, that I can trust. That’s like a circle, this smaller community. If you can believe it, there’s an association that represents the association for associations, but there’s a community that I really enjoy being a part of that understands what I do on a day-to-day basis, that is not part of the ESSAE membership. And to have them has been a huge resource that I can go to the people within this group and bounce ideas off of and say, “Are you struggling with this?” And maybe there’s a shoulder to cry on because you’re just trying to get through the day, and they get it, from a different perspective than maybe my board or members do.
Chris:
Yeah. You see, I feel like, as humans, we have to be able to… We can’t do it alone. As much as people will say, or the world looks like we’re going into these… People say everybody’s receding back to be alone in their own places behind their walls. On their computers, we don’t need to be out, we’re not social anymore. I disagree. I think even though there’s a tendency to do that, I don’t think that we’d be able to survive and get over things and get through problems by ourself. We’re not like that by design, and it’s really important. You talked about an exchange of ideas and being able to… I just did a show on accepting criticism or being able to listen to the other side. I feel like that’s something we’re losing nowadays.
Chris:
And I know at Overit here, it’s one of the things that I love about here, is that they’re not afraid, the people that I work with, to push back on my ideas and say, “Why do you think that? Why do you think this is the best thing to do?” And they’re not doing it to belittle me or to knock me down, but because we have a common goal of advancing our client or the job at hand. And if you’re not willing to listen to that, or even go out and seek that, I feel like you’re never going to be able to grow. So you do have those outlets and you feel like that is something that has helped you [crosstalk 00:22:49]-
Vanessa:
I do. And not only that I have… I have my professional outlets, but I also have my personal ones.
Chris:
Personal, yep.
Vanessa:
And I think one of the ones… And people do always, they always want to know about my rabbits. Right? So I always have to bring them into the conversation.
Chris:
Oh yeah. Talk about your rabbits.
Vanessa:
Yeah.
Chris:
I heard rabbits in your bio. We got to talk about the rabbits, so go ahead.
Vanessa:
I can’t have a conversation without bringing them in. My husband is probably like, “Oh, there she goes. She’s talking about it.”
Chris:
There she goes. She got the rabbits.
Vanessa:
But they really have been a big help, and I enjoy them so much because they bring joy into my life during a time where it was… It’s really hard during COVID in a pandemic and now I have all these rabbits and I’ve seen… I signed up… I volunteer for a group called the Rabbit Resource. So they’re a all volunteer group that rescues and trains people on how to adopt house rabbits. So I have had probably, I think now 27 rabbits that have come through. I have a litter-
Chris:
So when you take them in, you keep them all? Or then they go out somewhere-
Vanessa:
They stay with me, so I foster them, and then they go out and they get adopted.
Chris:
Okay. All right. This is like farm girl coming back around now in the day. So you just love rabbits?
Vanessa:
I had rabbits when I was younger. I’ve been asked before, “Well, how did you decide you were going to foster rabbits?” I don’t even have an answer.
Chris:
It just happened, right?
Vanessa:
I literally went down a rabbit hole on the internet one day-
Chris:
There you go. There you go.
Vanessa:
And I said, “Ooh, fostering a rabbit might be a good idea.”
Chris:
And it’s like different kinds of… So this is the thing. I know nothing. I’ve noticed in my yard, rabbits cycle. When I first moved into my house, 10 years ago, there were a ton of rabbits, really cute. They were small, all different sizes. Then the rabbits sort of like went away for a while. Then all of a sudden now, the rabbits are back. Are there different kinds of rabbits?
Vanessa:
There are so many different breeds.
Chris:
There are.
Vanessa:
There’s probably 60 breeds of rabbits. There’s a lot… We are not, it’s not a specialty breed. It’s mixed. They’re like what you would find like cats and dogs, so just mixed breeds.
Chris:
Do they do this like dogs? I’ve learned like with dogs and probably cats, I don’t know… Mostly dogs. They have all these crazy breeds of dogs. They’re bred out. They’re very pure. People travel to random places to find this breed. Do they do that with rabbits?
Vanessa:
I believe they do. And 4H and fairs, you probably saw a lot of high school kids showing the rabbits at the fair or at the Altamont Fairgrounds and stuff like that. You’ll see the show rabbits.
Chris:
They have show rabbits?
Vanessa:
Show rabbits.
Chris:
And how big can rabbits get? Big?
Vanessa:
So the Flemish Giant could get to probably 15 plus pounds. Yeah.
Chris:
That’s a big rabbit.
Vanessa:
Yeah, that’s a big rabbit.
Chris:
Big ears, floppy ears?
Vanessa:
Yep. Big ears. I have not had a Flemish. Most of my rabbits have not exceeded probably seven or eight pounds.
Chris:
Where do you keep these rabbits?
Vanessa:
So normally they’re upstairs, but I just had a litter that I was fostering, so that was eight rabbits total, the mom and seven babies. We have a finished basement, so they’re down there. They have the whole area for themselves.
Chris:
Okay. What’s the gestation period for a rabbit?
Vanessa:
30 days.
Chris:
30 days.
Vanessa:
Yes.
Chris:
Okay.
Vanessa:
That is why-
Chris:
30 days.
Vanessa:
Uh-huh (affirmative).
Chris:
That’s why they say it’s like rabbits.
Vanessa:
It is.
Chris:
I get it.
Vanessa:
Because as soon as-
Chris:
That’s so interesting. As soon as it happens, you got rabbits coming.
Vanessa:
You have rabbits.
Chris:
Well, in the lab and in graduate school, I dealt with rodents, mice, and they’re quicker. It’s like 17 days and you have little baby mice.
Vanessa:
And as soon as mom gives birth, she could probably get pregnant again.
Chris:
Have more rabbits?
Vanessa:
Have another 30 days-
Chris:
That’s the thing.
Vanessa:
So spay and neuter.
Chris:
Can they interbreed?
Vanessa:
Yes.
Chris:
They can, right?
Vanessa:
Correct.
Chris:
That was the problem with mice. If you didn’t separate them quickly, you can have mice all around.
Vanessa:
Correct.
Chris:
That’s so interesting.
Vanessa:
Yeah, yeah. So I’m a big advocate, spay and neuter your pets, including rabbits. Yeah. You do not want to have a litter of seven to eight every 30 days.
Chris:
No, you don’t. Because then what happens, right? Then you get… Right. Exactly.
Vanessa:
It’s not good.
Chris:
See that? So before we close this interview, for people that are interested in ESSAE, or want to learn more about it, where can they go to get more information?
Vanessa:
Sure. They just go to essae.org, E-S-S-A-E dot org. And all of our information is there about our upcoming trade show and how to get in contact with us.
Chris:
All right. Great. Well, thank you so much for joining the Get Overit podcast.
Vanessa:
Thank you.
Chris:
I appreciate it.
Vanessa:
You’re welcome.
Chris:
Thank you.
Chris:
(music).